Curse

Lansing Kai Don · Apr 27, 2005, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Fellow forum advocates, I give you my leave. I haven't been here near as long as many of you but longer than most. It's suddenly occurred to me that Guild Wars is being released tomorrow, my finals are in two weeks and I've got work. This, however, is not why I'm leaving. For those of you who know me, you know I feel personally affronted when authority takes a stand on oppression and bases it on justifications of equality for the masses. If we're communist, I'd agree with the foundations of this argument.. but my impression is what we're a democratic forum with open discussion. This is completely based on how the moderators/admins lead by the authority they encompass.

On reflection of my own time spent here (not a waste of time, mind you), that I've helped many people past game/technical/ and personal issues. This has always been a joy in my life, being the bright spot in my almost dreary day. But the forums general rules of practice have taken a nose dive. At first, I thought it was recoverable and tried to open a suggestions on way to improve on a very small minor part of the overall picture. After that topic, was opened it seemed to be a success, but then promptly took a nosedive as it got sidetracked (I am included in helping it in it's wrongful direction). The reason I am explaining this is because I'd be lying if this wasn't the straw that broke the camels back so to speak.

Now, I will still be available via Messenger for those of you who need/want to contact me. Also any people who are in the game don't forget to say hi. I'm posting this for an informative basis only. And as my last attempt to show the actual effect unseen authority has on people. No, as my last attempt I mean last... I won't be back. Although, I wasn't alone in many actions, I believe this community has saved this forum from many mistakes and I hope it coninues to do so. This forum has the ability to become not just a fledgeling forum for an upcoming game and then disappear on the wind, but a forum to weather many winters. But at it's current state, I don't think it has what it takes... moderators should moderate in moderation. May be my personal belief, but from my experience... overcontrolling authority is usually the demise of the forums. I'm transferring forums, I'm not going to post the name of the othe forum. If you want to know, you'll message me. I'll check my messages for a day.

And I hope when I come back to check in (not participate), that some things have been changed. I just don't have the time and effort to try and persuade it from its current course anymore. Especially with the game itself coming available tomorrow. This has been my last attempt... and if you don't trust what I'm saying. Ask what the people want. Look past the "yes" men, and actually look at what your forum is becoming. Take a look at other dead forums and ask yourselves why did they become like that. I know... I was once a moderator on one. No "one" moderator/admin can control it.. as I am not blaming all moderators/admins. Only those who refuse to accept suggestions and change...

Also, I'd suggest if you don't do it for yourselves. Do it for ANet and Guild Wars. Make yourselves great representatives of the games. I understand you're your own site, but you're still representing Guild Wars and from the last time I checked haven't removed your name from their elite fansite group. That reminds me, someone else whose wisdom I'll share: It's supposed to be a fansite, not a moderator/admin site.

You may be knowledgeable but compared to your fan base, your wisdom is infinitesimally small. This is for any group of people when compared to a much larger group.

Lansing Kai Don

P.S. I really do hope you make it.. by whatever means you can. But I'm almost positive that if it's getting too controlling for me and several others. Then you're doing something wrong.. and don't rationalize. It doesn't go well with authority and leadership.

P.P.S. For those who want to know the thread, and quite honestly the irony that become of it. Here is the link and the thread that finished me off.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...1&page=1&pp=40

Manderlock · Apr 27, 2005, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Dont go man, we are losing too many as is.

Auh · Apr 27, 2005, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Yes, I did read parts of the thread prior to this thread, And some really good points were made. I don't see why the thread was closed. DreamSmith's comment didn't really make much sense to me. It may not be able to be fixed now, But it definently could have been. I would believe that's the point in posting a thread about it, specifically in the site feedback forum. Closing a thread like that is just disagreeing and not quite solving the problem, more like trying to avoid it.

Yes, I did also see the locking of threads near instantly as negative. The poster was often not able to say if he understood the answer, or even to give a possible thanks.

Anyways, I'd like to say a formal good-bye to you.

Fare thee well, Lansai Kai Don.

Synthos · Apr 27, 2005, 03:46 AM // 03:46

People almost always get corrupt when given temporary positions of power. The more power the more corrupt, its human nature.

William of Orange · Apr 27, 2005, 03:50 AM // 03:50

This isn't a matter of corruption Synthos, so I wouldn't even try to tiptoe down that road; you'll probably get a toe bit off.

This is simply a matter of the mods doing their jobs and people who have had threads closed wondering why it's happening to them. I understand why some people will be thrown off by this and view the mods actions as "oppresive" or "dictatorial," but when it comes down to it, the mods are right; use the search button to try and find your answer first, THEN make a new thread about it. There's no need for people to create the same thread every single day when they can do a 10 second search and find the answer they're looking for. If they still have questions beyond that, then make a post or reply in a related thread.

Nonetheless, it's still too bad that you're leaving Lansing, best of luck with the game and everything else.

Brungo · Apr 27, 2005, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Synthos

People almost always get corrupt when given temporary positions of power. The more power the more corrupt, its human nature.

While you couldn't be more correct...especially with forums (maybe not this one) run by people who have never held a position of authority...I also agree with the below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by William of Orange

This isn't a matter of corruption Synthos, so I wouldn't even try to tiptoe down that road; you'll probably get a toe bit off.

This is simply a matter of the mods doing their jobs and people who have had threads closed wondering why it's happening to them. I understand why some people will be thrown off by this and view the mods actions as "oppresive" or "dictatorial," but when it comes down to it, the mods are right; use the search button to try and find your answer first, THEN make a new thread about it. There's no need for people to create the same thread every single day when they can do a 10 second search and find the answer they're looking for. If they still have questions beyond that, then make a post or reply in a related thread.
.

Agreed.

Synthos · Apr 27, 2005, 04:04 AM // 04:04

Ive been here helping new people and explaining questions away and just helping the community, but then i get a nasty email because i have ADD and i didnt read the part in the suggestions forum that says "post only once". I get treated like trash, even though i try to help the community soo much. So i hear your complaints

Darkmane · Apr 27, 2005, 04:14 AM // 04:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by William of Orange

This isn't a matter of corruption Synthos, so I wouldn't even try to tiptoe down that road; you'll probably get a toe bit off.

This is simply a matter of the mods doing their jobs and people who have had threads closed wondering why it's happening to them. I understand why some people will be thrown off by this and view the mods actions as "oppresive" or "dictatorial," but when it comes down to it, the mods are right; use the search button to try and find your answer first, THEN make a new thread about it. There's no need for people to create the same thread every single day when they can do a 10 second search and find the answer they're looking for. If they still have questions beyond that, then make a post or reply in a related thread.

Nonetheless, it's still too bad that you're leaving Lansing, best of luck with the game and everything else.

Hmm.. I have a problem with the way you stated that it is the mods doing their jobs. You may have not have the same views as some of us here that are only here really to help others and to bide our time while we await GuildWars release. It makes it near impossible to help when threads are closed almost immediatly after being posted. Yes I agree that they often ask the same questions over and over, but this is a fan site. This site is here for the fans of GuildWars and, I presume, to help provide the information that people need when they come here and ask, regardless on if they use the search button or not. Now, I do agree that mods do need to intervene when a thread has gone 2 or 3 pages about one subject with an original question that has been answered. Who wants to do a search for the same question and find 500 posts in a thread where the answer is burried? No one. I also would like to point out that as the day has gone on, there have been less and less posts being locked/closed/ etc.. Hats off!

I am sad to see you go as well as it was sad to see Sin go. Many times I enjoyed reading the insight of the posts by you both.

Bye Lansing!

Spooky · Apr 27, 2005, 04:41 AM // 04:41

I have absolute power, therefore, I am corrupted absolutely.
Can't you tell? I'm the most horrible person in this entire community. Just yesterday, I was psychologically tormenting Scaper-X. Why? Because I can.

Jokes aside, i've always liked to look at things from an impartial standpoint, so here is what I think of it: It's a little bit of an overreaction from both sides, that ultimately, isn't really going to matter. Right now, the Mods are doing what they feel is necessary for them to do in order to maintain order in the forums - and right now, that is necessary. There are a lot of duplicate threads being made, which can very easily push off / bury other threads. It is indeed pretty easy to find a lot of answers merely by using the search, just like it is also easy to find many of those answers on the site itself. There are a lot of ways we can approach this, and regardless, someone is always going to be upset by it. Is it any 'worse' to answer someone's thread and lock it then it is for a random person to say "FFS! Read the FAQ!" which invariably leads to other people chiming in on the hostile sentiment ... just because they can? I've seen it happen many times before, and it will happen if you let it. So which is worse? Blunt mod or angry community? Not everyone has the patience of a saint, unfortunately.

The reason why I say that, ultimately, this doesn't matter is that: Yes, things are chaotic right now. There's a lot of people with a lot of questions showing up in short order. They don't have the game, or they just got it and can't play it yet, or anything of the sort - it's all plausible right now. So of course, with retail literally right around the corner - we're going to have a major influx to deal with. This will most certainly continue on for a while - but we will reach a point where the community creates its own equilibrium .. where the people that have the answers won't be outnumbered by the people that have the questions. A lot of the zerging is going to go away, and in its place - I will certainly hope that we will have a lot of people that are happy to help and share their experience, so this doesn't come down to a "Mod only" responsibility.

I have stated in the past that these transition phases are never easy, and yes - people are going to feel alienated or upset invariably by anything that we do. All I can really ask is for patience and understanding. This isn't easy for any of us, so let's not make it more difficult than it already is. We hear people's suggestions and we certainly take into consideration what people have to say, even if they aren't being "Yes men" - but in the end, we will still do what we feel is right for this site, and for our community. If people really want to make this site the best it can be - then I can only stress that the way to do that is to be a representative of your own ideals.

Inde · Apr 27, 2005, 04:45 AM // 04:45

Moved post.

Synthos · Apr 27, 2005, 04:46 AM // 04:46

I actually had a very specific person in mind spooky, youve always been pleasent and fair. Forgive me

Inde · Apr 27, 2005, 04:59 AM // 04:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Synthos

People almost always get corrupt when given temporary positions of power. The more power the more corrupt, its human nature.

Going to drag this OT [not minding that this post was originally posted in somewhere it did not belong], but that just made me chuckle. Power? Are you serious? You got one nasty PM - did you bother contacting the rest of the admins? (if it was the admins - the case becomes all the admins if it was a moderator).

Ive been doing this for a long time, and Spooky also. Barring me, I think you can agree Spooky is a nice chap. So why is it so hard to trust someone who is both likeable and experienced? I am getting tired of saying this, but I will say this again: We are making rules to ensure the high quality of this forum. That is all. Arguments of philosophical decisions in regards to our rules and allusions to communism/democracy are silly, and are just attempts by suppoused intellects to gain some contrived position of 'power' against our rules.

Dreamsmith · Apr 27, 2005, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auh

Yes, I did read parts of the thread prior to this thread, And some really good points were made. I don't see why the thread was closed.

Because those really good points were already made, and people weren't making any new ones, just repeating themselves and their disagreements. The thread had reached a state where it could serve no useful purpose anymore.

Quote:

DreamSmith's comment didn't really make much sense to me. It may not be able to be fixed now, But it definently could have been. I would believe that's the point in posting a thread about it, specifically in the site feedback forum.

Indeed, and it was useful feedback. Thanks to everyone who contributed.

Quote:

Closing a thread like that is just disagreeing and not quite solving the problem, more like trying to avoid it.

No, it was preventing a further problem. Leaving it open wouldn't have solved the original problem either, and indeed was taking us further away from solving it.

Quote:

Yes, I did also see the locking of threads near instantly as negative.

So, in fact, do I. If you think I closed that thread because I disagree with Lansing, you're way off base.

Daemon · Apr 27, 2005, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Aside from the closing of threads and deleting of posts, which happens quite a lot (maybe a little more than a reasonable level, but it's the mods board to mod it in whichever mod-fashion the mods feeling like modding it

) there are a few other traits than make the mods seem less than friendly folk. I'll use a recent personal example of my own: Last week some time, after I posted my opinion on a discussion board, I was flamed pretty harshly by none other than site contributers (and yes, more than one). Now, their content wasn't incorrect ('debatable' would be the adjective here) in any means (and actually quite helpful) but it was their method of conveying said content that was incorrect. Naturally, I didn't take the text of someone I've never met personally, and responded in a normal fashion hoping to 'discuss' my original post. The mods, though not modding, certainly did not make me feel welcome or wanted. That's just me, and that's been the only time I've been directly affected, but perhaps some of the complaints have been partial to reasons other than mere thread-closing and post-deleting. Sad to see another go, though I've never spoken with you Lansing.

P.S. Spooky, there isn't enough of you to go around

EDIT: The 'search' function is not very user friendly, and maybe that's a reason for it's lack of use. Also, once a post is no longer 'current' replying seems next to useless, so a new thread is opened to continue the same subject. Add to that new forum users, and people deliberatly disobeying, and you have yourself a mess. It sucks, but it's going to happen.

March Hare · Apr 27, 2005, 05:18 AM // 05:18

I can understand both points of view...

One the one hand we don't want to have a single idea posted so many times that the fist 20 threads of any forum is the exact same theme. The moderators/administration for the most part tries to combine and "trim" those erroneous posts.

On the other hand, when a discussion seems to be running in circles they also seem to close the posts. This is the one I tend to have a problem with. We have not necessarily heard from everyone on the subject and they close it before all have had their say.

There is a very fine line in deciding when a post should be closed, we are all human after all, and personal calls are different from one to another. I assume (and hope I'm correct in this assumption) that not all of the administration sees all things the same way.

I do believe that overall this site has provided ample grounds for allowing open discussion on things, and for the most part have let strings to go on for a decent amount of time... for the most part. As with Lansing Kai Don reason for leaving, I think it's kind of two fold... I agree with him that the string should have been allowed to go on longer and allowed for open discussion and expressions of personal view, experiences, and/or insight. That being said I don't believe a person should give up just because they can't get their own way... it's not like the administrators can't be talked to or reasoned with... I personally hate it when people will do nothing but complain but do nothing to try and correct it... how many people here will just go buy a person in need of assistance (my personal one is someone in a broken down vehicle) without helping and just look and walk away...

There are better ways to do things... but if no one puts in the effort to make thing better there is no use in complaining about it. Just giving things a chance is not constructive, it only relies on luck... Make your own luck and put in the effort.

So I'm not going to give up and keep trying to voice my opinion and answers to questions the best I can and allow things to change for the better... I'll get out of this what I put into it.

Spooky · Apr 27, 2005, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by March Hare

There are better ways to do things... but if no one puts in the effort to make thing better there is no use in complaining about it. Just giving things a chance is not constructive, it only relies on luck... Make your own luck and put in the effort.

So I'm not going to give up and keep trying to voice my opinion and answers to questions the best I can and allow things to change for the better... I'll get out of this what I put into it.

That's a good way of looking at things, and certainly something that I agree with. Those that are 'in charge' are only part of the equation - we can influence things, but not to the extent that users can influence each other. If enough people share in that kind of progressive, positive attitude - we'll all be the better for it.

Synthos · Apr 27, 2005, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

Going to drag this OT [not minding that this post was originally posted in somewhere it did not belong], but that just made me chuckle. Power? Are you serious? You got one nasty PM - did you bother contacting the rest of the admins? (if it was the admins - the case becomes all the admins if it was a moderator).

Ive been doing this for a long time, and Spooky also. Barring me, I think you can agree Spooky is a nice chap. So why is it so hard to trust someone who is both likeable and experienced? I am getting tired of saying this, but I will say this again: We are making rules to ensure the high quality of this forum. That is all. Arguments of philosophical decisions in regards to our rules and allusions to communism/democracy are silly, and are just attempts by suppoused intellects to gain some contrived position of 'power' against our rules.

I suppose i should have contacted the other admins about the way ive been treated but i rarely see you or spooky in the forums so i assumed that thats the way the forums are being managed over at this site. You and Spooky have been really nice, so i appologise for the statement.

Inde · Apr 27, 2005, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Spooky's post count: 527 (4.01 posts per day)
My post count: 309 (2.35 posts per day)

Mind you, my post count is not good to go on. I do a lot more moderating than posting.

Daemon: How is the search not friendly? I am not following.

Manderlock · Apr 27, 2005, 06:27 AM // 06:27

bah, the thread was ok as it was.

I for one laughed when i saw a thread about closing threads be closed, however if i was lansing i would have been pissed off. I would have sent a nasty PM and prolly ended up in th joint agin.

The point i mean to make is, we dont need to "scare" of people such as Sin and Lansin. They where the thoughtfull kind of posters we need here to keep the GWG forums running. True there are other knowlegeable(sp?) posters, but what happens when they get feed up and leave. We need people that will help the newbies (search for lansings posts he has helped so many its insane) offer there opinions with a reason (Sin did this countless time, and whether you beleived the same or not you have to respect that) i.e.being a good thoughtfull poster.

Over all this is a great sight, i just think we might need to look at things more long term.

Dreamsmith · Apr 27, 2005, 07:14 AM // 07:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manderlock

bah, the thread was ok as it was.

Funny you should say that. If there was one post in that thread I agreed with more than any other, it was this one. Your first and third sentences together more succinctly sum up my own feelings about that thread than my own attempts to explain why I felt it needed to be closed; well, that, and the fact that the advice you gave in your fourth and sixth lines was not followed. The thread needed to be put out of our misery if we were ever going to get back to a useful discussion of the problems at hand.

Quote:

I for one laughed when i saw a thread about closing threads be closed, however if i was lansing i would have been pissed off. I would have sent a nasty PM and prolly ended up in th joint agin.

He did PM me, and he wasn't nasty, but didn't seem to want to discuss the matter reasonably. He pretty much agreed with me about how the thread had veered away from any useful purpose (as he did in his first post in this thread), but somehow insisted that since I closed the thread, there was simply no hope; there was no possible way new threads could me made with positive, on-topic suggestions without all the blame and bickering, it was either keep the horribly derailed and no longer productive thread open or there was just no hope. What can I say? I disagreed.

Quote:

The point i mean to make is, we dont need to "scare" of people such as Sin and Lansin.

Nobody scared Lansing. Nor did anybody run him off. He insisted it was his way or the highway, and I refused to do what I knew would be wrong just because he insisted it had to be that way. So he chose the highway.

That thread was turning into something that was doing more to detract from the issues he wanted addressed than aid them. I refused to help him torpedo his own crusade. So he left. I'm sorry to see him go, but I'm not sorry about what I did. I'm just sorry I couldn't get through to him why his precious thread was doing his cause more harm than good. I did try. I was hoping he'd actually make those other, fresh suggestions he claimed he had. But he wasn't willing unless it was done his way. His way would have just seen those suggestion dismissed out of hand without even being carefully considered, because of how and where they were presented. But, whatever. Water under the bridge at this point...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manderlock

Over all this is a great sight, i just think we might need to look at things more long term.

It's the long term view that's guiding the current policy. It's a lot easier to prevent any site from degenerating than it is to try to fix it after it happens. A lot of what people would like to see done differently than is being done is stuff that might work fine right now, but isn't going to work in the long run. Lansing was so sure he knew more than the rest of us about what the long term impact of certain moderation styles is. I find that a little amusing. For the record, the first forums I ever moderated were on Terminus BBS in the Twin Cities (612) back in 1985. Lansing was two years old at the time. A lot of the moderators here have more experience than I do, or at least more recent experience. I have a bit more faith in their assessments of the long term impact of certain decisions than he did.

Anyhow, that's my last word on the whole Lansing affair, and on that particular thread closing. If someone wants to suggest new, fresh ideas on how to deal with the flood of new users and the problems it brings, make a new thread for it. I don't oppose discussion of the problem, but we need positive suggestions, not negatives and blame. We know there are problems with the way things are, they don't need to be pointed out yet again, what we need, if there is to be any change, is a better alternative. I'm all for more suggestions on the issue, just not in that thread, and not if it's just rehashing of what was already said there.